youTube removed example 5 video because of copyright...

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Postby darthflo » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:23 pm

Hey there!
First of all sorry for registering and filling your board with potentially useless stuff without actually being interested in Irrlicht itself.
Secondly: You have been slashdotted. Have fun with the lots of visitors you'll be having already :)
Thirdly: Please, please sue Viacom for this false accusation and attack on your reputation. Your video was most probably one of one hundred thousand "infringing" videos on youtube. I am no counselor and am not trying to give you any legal advice or similar, I'm just asking you to please sue those morons, send youtube a counter notice and do whatever you can to make companies like them stop abusing the oh-so-useful DMCA. That's it.
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Postby bitplane » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:26 pm

Just a quick note to say hello slashdot!
Yep, this made front page news :lol:

edit: doh! i was too slow ;)

Well while I'm editing, I might as well make this post informative..
Firstly, it's down to veegun to do any suing, since the 'you must not claim you wrote it yourself' clause in the Irrlicht License (zlib based) only applies to source code distributions.

Secondly, this is what a major slashdotting looks like.. yep that's 4 gigs and rising!
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Postby zeno60 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:31 am

On the sueing viacom business, two wrongs don't make a right. Would end up costing a lot for little in return. Don't misunderstand, they suck for trying to own them internets, that has to be stopped.

On the slashdot business - awesome! :P
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Postby zenaku » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:55 am

You can counter sue for legal costs so that it won't be expensive and worthless. It would take a big investment, true, but not necessarily a big cost if you win. I'm willing to donate $500 USD to the cause. Anybody else willing to donate? This sh1t seriously pisses me off. I would sue myself if I had any copyright on the video.

Whomever does, if you are seriously interested in going after Viacom, you should probably talk to these guys:

I started playing with Irrlicht at a time when I was making DRM for the record companies, so this issue is particularly sensitive to me. In some ways I feel Irrlicht and the prospect of game development saved me from the evils of DRM/DMCA/RIAA as I quit that company shortly thereafter.

Anybody can send a well written DMCA takedown notice to an ISP and have anybody elses content taken down. The ISP is forced to until the matter is settled in court. What's wrong here is that the rule of innocent until proven guilty is violated. If I send the letter, you are guilty until otherwise noted, and that's just bullshit.
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Postby xhyldazhk » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:58 am

Lets boycott Viacom. I'm much more fan of Irrlicht than of any thing Viacom has.
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Postby Nodtveidt » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:38 am

Viacom just had to pull another stunt to maintain a somewhat respectable image to their investors. From what I understand, their financial state has been edgy over the last fiscal year, making investors nervous. A move like this basically tells investors "hey, we're okay, we just cleaned up a huge problem! let the bills start flying!" which allows the investors to slide the corn cob just slightly more into their bungholes and not worry as much about their precious dividends.
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Re: youTube removed example 5 video because of copyright...

Postby rfc1394 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:42 am

veegun wrote:I was shocked to find an email from youtube claiming that the irrlicht example 5 video infringed on viacom's copyright.

I haven't a clue what it is that's in the example 5 video that viacom owns. Maybe they own the user-interface of irrlicht? :(

Here's the full email:

(item deleted)

I have two possible suggestions. One, you may consider suing them for filing a false DMCA notification. If it is obvious that the item is something that they do not own and would clearly should be aware that they have no ownership, the takedown notice was fraudulent and they are liable. Also, there may be grounds to sue them for libel since they have, in effect, damaged your reputation. You can probably get a lawyer to take this at no cost to you on a percentage basis of what is recovered if the misconduct (of fraudulent takedown notice) is obvious, Viacom is an obvious deep pocket target. It may also - since the notice was sent by e-mail - constitute wire fraud. The problem with this is you have to sue them in the judicial district where their home office is located, and if it's a long way away this might not be an option.

The second option is to file (as the letter states) a DMCA counternotice. Unless Viacom sues you within ten days their takedown request becomes void. And they have to sue you where you live, not in their home city, and you then have grounds to file all the countersuit issues.

You could also write Viacom and demand they withdraw their knowingly fraudulent DMCA takedown or you will sue them for all of the above and anything else you can think of.

It may be an unfortunate condition these days but large organizations will pick on small and weak ones when they think won't fight back, especially since they (usually correctly) presume the target can't afford to defend itself.

This is one of the reasons I recommend anyone running a software project operate it through a legal entity such as a corporation or an LLC and never under their own name or using a partnership. My actual comment is "never run any business larger than a roadside lemonade stand as a sole proprietorship and never use a partnership."

A corporation is a separate person legally from its owners, incorporators or managers; as long as the paperwork is done correctly, the people running it are not liable for its debts if it is sued or owes money to someone. If you release a software package under your own name, you personally can be sued and are liable for up to every dime you own in damages. If you release it under a partnership or as a group, each person who is a partner and every member of the group is individually and jointly liable for any and all damages. If you release it under a corporate name, you personally are not liable for damages if any occur. Even if the corporation is owned by one person, as long as the paperwork is kept correctly the corporation and its owner(s) are separate and neither is liable for the other's debts or claims against it.

The cost to incorporate is not very high in most places (usually under $200 and as low as $50 a year thereafter if set up correctly, and it doesn't require a lawyer; I know because I've set up more than 5 corporations in more than one state) and because of the liability protections it's a real bargain vs. a potential $100,000 copyright infringement claim. Or a patent infringement claim if someone thinks your program violates a patent (or several patents). Plus if someone does threaten suit and you can't afford to defend it, you can always sell the assets (the program) to a new corporation, forfeit the old one's charter by folding the corporation and there's no assets to go after if it is sued and loses.

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Postby Nodtveidt » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:09 am

LLC is definately the way to go in the modern age.
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Postby vaskrist » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:57 am

On the other hand you gained some popularity and advertisement. I have first heard about Irrlicht on slashdot. So I am thankful to Viacom for bringing my attention to you :o).
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Postby rogerborg » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:35 pm

Meh, it happens. Don't even bother contesting it, just re-submit the video and let Viacom play whack-a-mole if they want. It's their money they're wasting on sending takedowns.
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Postby needforhint » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:18 pm

just post the video once again. If the event repeat, you might sue a lot of money in turn.
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Postby niko » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:31 pm

Yep, the slashdot mention is nice, Irrlicht hit the Slashdot frontpage about 2 years ago the last time, I think. Brought some new users with it :)
But I don't think sueing is very useful: There's no much damage for us, it just shows the terrible behavior and ignorance of some of those big corporations very well. And this maybe is already some enough damage for them :)
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Postby raven_coda » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:39 pm


Is there anywhere that I can view this video? I'd like to see just what they're claim they own. If I can't view it would someone be so kind as to email it to me or PM me?
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Postby BlindSide » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:23 am

Its just the gui tutorial, found here:
(Look at the screenshot)

I wonder if there were some file names in the open file dialog that viatcom contested?
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Postby raven_coda » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:18 am

I realize that's the jest of it but I'm looking for any small details etc. I have just finished taking a class on digital law and this is just the kind of problems I have been looking at. It's a problem in the DMCA where it favors the larger corporations and not the little guys.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

FYI: If you file a counter notice as they suggest, and I do too, then they are required to rehost the video with 10 to 14 days of receiving you counter notice.
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